Episode 2
Sophie Cachia - My Secret Pain
On the second episode of Season 2, we are joined by someone who defines what it means to live authentically, fiercely, and out loud. Don't forget, you can watch this full, raw conversation right now over on our new YouTube channel!
Our guest this week is Australian media powerhouse, entrepreneur, and bestselling author Sophie Cachia. Rising to prominence as one of Australia’s first major digital creators, Sophie has built an absolute empire, founding successful businesses and capturing the nation's attention on Survivor Australia. She is also the author of the bestselling memoir Then There Was Her, a beautifully honest account of navigating her sexuality, identity, and life in the public eye.
But behind the business acumen, the digital influence, and the fierce public persona lies a deeply guarded childhood reality that Sophie is now sharing with a profound level of vulnerability: as a child, she was self-harming. It was a silent, internal storm—a secret pain that no one around her knew about. To the outside world, she was a bright, capable kid, but inside, she was navigating an overwhelming emotional weight without the tools to express it.
In their post-interview debrief, James and Nick step into the psychology of the "invisible struggle": A sensitive clinical look at why children turn to self-harm, exploring it not as attention-seeking behavior, but as a desperate attempt to regulate overwhelming internal pain when words fail, and the immense psychological freedom that comes from finally bringing your secret pain into the light.
This is a heavy, beautiful, and profoundly necessary conversation about the burdens children carry in silence, and the radical healing that happens when we choose to be honest with ourselves and each other.
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Disclaimer: This episode contains discussions of childhood self-harm. If this raises any difficult feelings for you, please reach out for support. In Australia, you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. International listeners can find local resources at findahelpline.com.
Credits: Produced and Hosted by Dr James van Cuylenburg & Nick van Cuylenburg.
Audio production by White Owl Sound.
Season 2 is brought to you by Engage 1on1 Psychology
Special thanks to the wonderful Julia Ferracane from Righteous PR for introducing us to Sophie and for recommending her as a guest.
If you believe in what we are doing and would like to support us to make more, then we will gratefully accept any donations here: https://youreagoodkid.com.au/support
Transcript
We all want to feel seen, to feel connected and validated.
Speaker A:For some, that need is now engaged through the landscape of social media where every moment can be witnessed and commented on by an audience of millions.
Speaker A:But does this digital validation meet our deepest human needs?
Speaker A:Today we're joined by a prominent Australian entrepreneur, best selling author and and digital media pioneer Sophie Katia.
Speaker A:Sophie first gained a following through her viral blog the Young Mummy, revealing relatable glimpses of her life as a mum and wife.
Speaker A:She has since built a multifaceted career as the founder of successful brands such as Keisha.
Speaker A:Loved for her candid and vulnerable storytelling.
Speaker A:Today she opens up about her complex childhood in a surprising and revealing way.
Speaker A:Now Nic, what an enjoyable chat we had with Sophie.
Speaker B:Yeah, I found this chat really engaging and just left feeling very grateful for Sophie for being so willing to be honest and vulnerable in the way that she was to speak about things that are very difficult to speak about, including hidden pain when you're young and also self harm.
Speaker B:Now we didn't know the conversation was going to go in that direction, but I'm grateful that it did because we just know what a common experience this is, unfortunately for many Australians and just also a topic that you don't often hear discussed.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is a complex topic and I can speak to the fact I've worked with many, many young people in the clinic room who have experienced self harm and I know many parents have questions about it.
Speaker A:So that's something that we will discuss further in the debrief today.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It was also a great opportunity to speak with a prominent influencer about social media, to see her perspective from the inside of it and kind of analyze a little bit of the social media landscape that we all live in now.
Speaker A:Such an important topic and she's got some really good insights about this as someone who works in that industry, so looking forward to sharing it with you all today.
Speaker A:You're a Good Kid is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and is supported by Engage One on One Psychology Helping People Engage with Life.
Speaker B:This podcast discusses mental health related themes that may be triggering for some listeners.
Speaker B: r if urgent, call Lifeline on: Speaker A:My name is James Van Cuylenburg.
Speaker A:I'm a clinical psychologist and together with my brother Nick, we're going to hear stories from a diverse range of people about how their childhoods have shaped them.
Speaker B:Our guests are invited to share a photo of themselves as kids which you can see by following the link in the show notes and at the end of each episode you'll hear them read a letter to their child selves.
Speaker A:If you could say anything to your child self, what would you say?
Speaker B:Welcome to youo're a Good Kid.
Speaker B: Sophie Kaysher was born in: Speaker B:While she describes Melbourne as home, she did spend many years living elsewhere as a child as her family followed her father's AFL coaching career around the country.
Speaker C:So I would have been 4, 5, 6 moving to Adelaide when my dad coached the crows there and around seven, eight I lived in Tasmania and then Melbourne since yeah sort of that age but spent a lot of time visiting Perth as well.
Speaker B:Sophie is the youngest of four daughters.
Speaker B:She has twin sisters who are three years older and another sister who is six years older.
Speaker B:She describes the family dynamic as fun and playful.
Speaker B:And while she lovingly recalls a strong sisterly bond, she also had to work extra hard for attention.
Speaker C:You know, all I ever wanted to do was play with my sisters and I felt like my twin sisters always had each other and then perhaps it might have been a bit too big of an age gap between me and my older sister to really connect on that level as kids, but it's yeah, there's something really beautiful about having sisters.
Speaker B:Sophie reflects that her parents performed stereotypical gender roles in their family.
Speaker B:With her dad being extremely busy and often away with his work and her mum juggling the relentless needs of four daughters.
Speaker C:I always say to her now having three kids of my own, I don't know how she had a hot dinner.
Speaker C:It sounds so cliche but it's true.
Speaker C:She had a hot dinner on a fully set table every night at 6:30.
Speaker C:And I just don't know how she physically did that, but she did.
Speaker B:While having an AFL coach for a father certainly provided Sophie and the family with access to exciting sporting events, it did mean that he was often away or unavailable given the demands of his job.
Speaker C:Something about dad though is he always showed up for sport when we needed it.
Speaker C:Like he would take my sister Amy to tennis lessons every Wednesday.
Speaker C:That was his thing.
Speaker C:And he'd always stop at the milk bar and get us a Mars bar on the way.
Speaker C:But we were never allowed to tell Mum.
Speaker C:So whilst he wasn't there physically because he couldn't be, he definitely, I never felt like he was absent.
Speaker B:Sport was certainly the connective tissue in Sophie's household and while sometimes she had difficulty gaining the attention and love she craved as a child, she always felt most seen and validated when playing sport.
Speaker C:Even now, sport is such a huge part of my life.
Speaker C:It's my favourite thing to do, just because it gives me so much joy.
Speaker C:And I think it's so important for me at this age to still find that joy like I had as a kid.
Speaker A:Sophie, Kaysha, welcome.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for coming to talk to us today.
Speaker C:No, thank you.
Speaker A:I'm very excited in doing my research for today.
Speaker A:I was on your Instagram and that is a.
Speaker A:That is a powerful instrument that you've got going there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I know that's been a big part of your adult career.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:But I was looking at your excellent Christmas clothing line that you are currently promoting, and seeing you and Sean Zeps doing some excellent work together.
Speaker A:It looks like a lot of fun.
Speaker C:Shaun is a lot of fun.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Shaun has brought a lot of fun to this studio, that is for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I was just thinking, like, just when you do that, you're obviously being playful, you're having fun, but it's going out to hundreds of thousands of people at a time.
Speaker C:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:Just before we're going to talk about your childhood today, but just I'd like to start there and ask you, what's that like when you post something knowing that several hundred thousand people are going to see it?
Speaker C:I think I'm probably used to it now.
Speaker C:I remember my dad actually said to me once, I remember when I hit 100,000 followers on Instagram and he said, that's the MCG.
Speaker C:I was like, what?
Speaker C:He's like, you're standing in the middle of the pitch on the mcg and you filled the stadium.
Speaker C:And I went, oh, wow.
Speaker C:When you put it like that, it is.
Speaker C:It is easy to get sort of lost in numbers.
Speaker C:Like, oh, it's just a number.
Speaker C:But, you know, I think now it's around 250,000.
Speaker C:Like, that's MCG twice over.
Speaker C:So I think there's part of me that is used to it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But then when you stop and actually analyze those numbers, that's a lot of.
Speaker C:Wow, that is a lot of people.
Speaker A:So you don't get nervous when you're putting yourself out there?
Speaker C:Like, no.
Speaker C:If anything, even after doing it for 12 years, I probably go, why?
Speaker C:Like, why are two MCGs filled of people watching me?
Speaker B:Why do you think they're there?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, there's definitely.
Speaker C:Part of me is like, I actually don't think I'm that exciting.
Speaker C:No, I don't get nervous.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:There's always been a Part of me that's loved being a performer as a kid, you know, always was wanting, pushing my sisters out of the way to get in front of the family photo or, you know, that was me.
Speaker C:So it's not surprising.
Speaker C:I don't think, looking back now, but.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
Speaker C:No, I don't actually think about it that deeply anymore.
Speaker A:Well, I suppose it's just been normalized for you.
Speaker C:It's so normal to me now for.
Speaker A:What, over a decade now.
Speaker A:This has been something that you've curated and.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Been a big part of your career.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:But we'll talk about that in a little while.
Speaker A:Obviously we're here today to go backwards and think about childhood and how it all started for you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Broadly speaking.
Speaker A:Is that something you think about much?
Speaker C:I do actually quite a lot now, having three of my own children and I'm still getting used to saying 3 because I have a 7 month old, but I think every year probably sounds a little bit cliche, but every year that goes by, my kids get older and I face something more and my love deepens for them.
Speaker C:Do reflect on my parents more than I'd probably ever like to admit.
Speaker C:In the hard times, the good times, in those little moments where I'm like, oh, Bobby didn't come and give me a kiss goodnight.
Speaker C:And it hurt my feelings.
Speaker C:Like, oh, my God, I was so mean to my mum.
Speaker C:All these times I feel bad.
Speaker A:It reframes everything, doesn't it?
Speaker C:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker C:And you know, anyone can tell you when you're teenager or when you're 20, anyone can you just wait.
Speaker C:But it is really true.
Speaker C:But the beauty out of it is the love and admiration I have for myself, my parents gets deeper every single year.
Speaker A:Seen through that new lens.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, that's, that's amazing.
Speaker A:So when we think about your childhood overall, what kind of picture does it paint for you?
Speaker C:I look back now, very, very privileged, very.
Speaker C:I was provided with every opportunity I think a kid can be presented with, went to good schools.
Speaker C:I, you know, my mum bought me the brand new pair of runners before every netball.
Speaker C:Like I didn't miss out on anything.
Speaker A:And from a kind of comfort point.
Speaker C:Of view, comfort point of view, opportunity point of view, holiday point of view, you know, even like I used to, my mum would make our lunch boxes, but they were always really healthy lunch boxes.
Speaker C:And I looked back and I go, oh, God, I missed out on the chips or the roll up.
Speaker C:And I'm like, no, I didn't.
Speaker C:My mum blessed Me with an incredibly healthy upbringing.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:That taught me great eating habits now.
Speaker C:So again, the shift from when you're a kid and you think you know it all and that it's.
Speaker C:I'm so hard done by when you're like, wow, they were really giving me the best life I could have had.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker B:So you had a pretty good in that sense.
Speaker B:But you had a lot of siblings.
Speaker B:There was a lot of.
Speaker B:A lot of noise, I would imagine was, you're one of four, is that right?
Speaker C:I am the baby of four girls, yeah.
Speaker B:So how was it getting attention from the parents?
Speaker C:Well, I think, and, and that is I. I've done a lot of reflection on this actually, and I think I am.
Speaker C:Because if.
Speaker C:If you look at my parents, I'm actually nothing like, well, there must be parts.
Speaker C:But I.
Speaker C:My mum is the shyest, most introverted, non confrontational person.
Speaker C:My dad certainly has more character and more go about him, I suppose.
Speaker C:But often I've gone, where did I come from?
Speaker C:Especially in my family.
Speaker C:Like, even my sister's very shy, very reserved.
Speaker C:But then on the other hand, I'm like, well, duh.
Speaker C:Because I was just like, someone look at me, please.
Speaker C:And that's not as in like, poor me.
Speaker C:I was never crying in the corner, but I use this line in my book where I said I had to jump a little higher to be seen.
Speaker C:It was just often, you know.
Speaker C:Come on.
Speaker C:All right, everyone's ready.
Speaker C:All right, Soph, hurry up, you.
Speaker C:Come on, let's go, let's go.
Speaker C:I was always just chasing.
Speaker C:All right, I'll tie my own shoes up.
Speaker C:Or I'll do this, I'll do that.
Speaker C:Which makes sense being in a busy household.
Speaker C:But I think I had to learn to do a lot of things quickly on my own and I just had to go with it.
Speaker C:And life goes on and you don't have time to eat that.
Speaker C:Let's go.
Speaker C:Yeah, Very busy, busy, busy.
Speaker A:And of course the story goes like the further you are down the chain, like the fourth kid, by now family systems are up and running.
Speaker B:Yeah, they know.
Speaker A:They've done this three times already.
Speaker A:It's like, yep, no, she'll be fine.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Was there a bit of that?
Speaker C:Definitely.
Speaker C:And that probably still exists today, right?
Speaker C:You know, I. I actually call myself like the most extroverted introvert because there's parts of me that are so introverted and, and there's this, there's this exterior that exists, but we're all human.
Speaker C:And so there is this softness inside of me.
Speaker C:But very often you're right, you're okay, you're.
Speaker C:I've been the amount of times I've been told my whole life, oh you'll be right, you'll be right, you'll be right.
Speaker C:Just from what I present whether it's not always the case.
Speaker C:So probably it wasn't until probably the last five years of my life I was really open with my mum and my dad about me and, and who is actually in here and my struggles and, and what does affect me in life.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So was there a sense of hiding identity then just to fit in, to not be a nuisance as the last?
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:Yeah absolutely.
Speaker C:I hit a lot of struggles.
Speaker A:You want to tell us about struggles?
Speaker A:What sort of things do you feel like you hid as a kid?
Speaker C:I was self harming at a very young age.
Speaker A:Oh really?
Speaker A:What age are we talking about?
Speaker C:I think I remember the first time I would have been 12, 13 years old.
Speaker A:Unfortunately not an uncommon thing.
Speaker C:And I hit it for a very, very long time.
Speaker C:You know what, it's probably something I've never actually spoken about face to face with either my parents, I believe they'd be aware of it now but yeah, I struggled with a lot of anxiety.
Speaker C:I look back now too.
Speaker C:I had this thing where I always wanted to sleep with my mum and I could never understand why I was so scared to sleep on my own.
Speaker C:I'm like I had severe anxiety as a kid and this I was in year 12 sometimes still sleeping in my mum's bed just out of comfort because I'd done it for so long in my life and it's really funny now I've.
Speaker C:I've co slept with all my children.
Speaker C:My son is now at the age where he's like I'm not sleeping with you anymore.
Speaker C:And it breaks my heart because I'm just so used to that comfort of people sleeping next to me.
Speaker C:But yeah, I definitely hid.
Speaker A:Did anyone know what you were going through at that time?
Speaker C:I don't know if she'd remember.
Speaker C:Maybe in like year 10.
Speaker C:I remember one of my sisters, we've never spoken about this, found me laying on my bed.
Speaker C:I wasn't self harming at the time but I had marks along my arm and she grabbed it.
Speaker C:I've never spoken about this so this would probably bring a lot back for her and she just burst into tears.
Speaker C:She's like what are you?
Speaker C:She knew what I'd been doing but no to actually you know what, I've never the only person to this day I've spoken To about it within my family unit is that same sister's now husband because he saw me only a few years ago after going through a relationship breakdown and he just pulled me aside at their house and he said, you know, I. I need to know that you're okay.
Speaker C:I know what that.
Speaker C:You know.
Speaker C:I told them that the dog jumped on me and scratched my leg or something, whether I'd been sitting, digging a knife into my thigh.
Speaker C:And I tried to tell them that a dog had my dog when a little dash hound had jumped up on my leg.
Speaker C:And he was actually the only person that pulled me aside and said no.
Speaker C:And he's the only person I've actually said that to.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:It's quite a big thing to bring up.
Speaker A:Are you okay to talk about this or would you prefer not to?
Speaker C:No, I am.
Speaker C:No, I am.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:I guess I'm curious the balance between what you described your family as kind of, you know, having everything, giving everything, quite loving, quite supportive in a lot of ways.
Speaker A:Busy, chaotic, and yet you've got this private struggle going on.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker A:It's okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's something I. I still don't understand.
Speaker C:I know why I did it, what I liked feeling in that moment, but I still don't know what caused me to do it.
Speaker C:I know what caused me to do it as an adult.
Speaker C:It was out of pain that I wanted to relocate somewhere, pain in my chest that I wanted to distract from.
Speaker C:But I do not know what caused me to do it as a child.
Speaker A:I know that there can be obviously a lot of secrecy around that kind of thing for young people who are going through it and they don't feel like people will understand or they feel like they might take it away and it feels like a kind of source of coping.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I often say with self harm for young people, like, it feels like a friend, but it's the worst kind of friend.
Speaker A:You know, it's like it feels like something that's safe and comforting and yours and kind of, you know, helpful, but of course it's literally harmful.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I mean, this is a big topic, but do you feel like through those years, maybe you can tell us how long it was actually happening for when you were 12, but did you come to an understanding at some point that this isn't the right way to go about expressing these feelings?
Speaker A:Or was this, how did it, you know, kind of resolve?
Speaker C:Maybe you've just hit it on the head then?
Speaker C:I've.
Speaker C:I have always struggled with how to express my feelings in the sense of.
Speaker C:Well, probably how to deal with my own emotions.
Speaker C:And now as an adult, I obviously have the resources and have done the work to understand it.
Speaker A:You've done the work now to understand it.
Speaker C:But at the time, at the time, it's one of those things.
Speaker C:And I can only speak from my experience, when you're doing it, it feels good in the moment, but there's always like that period about an hour later when the adrenaline's worn off and the physical pain kicks in, or the embarrassment and the shame.
Speaker C:So you always definitely come back to, this is wrong, it's not beneficial, but in that moment.
Speaker C:But I just.
Speaker A:When you're saying it felt good, what need do you think it was fulfilling for you as a kid?
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:I. I don't know.
Speaker C:I. I enjoyed feeling pain.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And do you remember friends doing the same thing?
Speaker C:I remember a girl in my netball team came to netball training once and she also had marks all over her arms and I've.
Speaker C:And all over her arms.
Speaker C:One random nipple training.
Speaker C:We never spoke about it, but I remember being envious of her that she was free to show her arms off, like she wasn't embarrassed by them, whether.
Speaker C:If that was me, it would have been a jumper.
Speaker A:You had already started doing it, but.
Speaker C:Yes, I was already doing so when I saw her.
Speaker C:Okay, okay.
Speaker C:She does it too.
Speaker C:Why isn't she embarrassed about it?
Speaker C:Why is.
Speaker C:You know.
Speaker C:But feeling jealous that she was okay to.
Speaker C:So I don't.
Speaker C:I don't know, like I was so shameful, but yet there was something that just gave me so much joy.
Speaker C:It just.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:As I'm saying this, I'm like, this makes no sense, but it did.
Speaker C:It gave me so much joy at that time, hurting myself.
Speaker A:Joy is an interesting word, isn't it?
Speaker C:It is an odd word to use on this topic.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I've heard people talk about it in terms of relief or feeling something or kind of comfort behavior or as you.
Speaker C:Said, like, relief is a great word and relief from what, at 12 years old?
Speaker C:I'm not sure.
Speaker C:Relief, a great word, like a stress reliever.
Speaker C:Like I associate it now with, you know, I used to smoke cigarettes once upon a time and that lighting up that first cigarette, like, ah.
Speaker C:Like it.
Speaker C:Honest.
Speaker C:That's probably when I think back to.
Speaker C:That's what it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But this, this wanting to hurt and punish myself.
Speaker C:Well, I wasn't a bad person at 12.
Speaker C:I wasn't doing anything that I. Yeah.
Speaker B:It's so heartbreaking to think of you that young.
Speaker B:So thank you for Trusting us to share that.
Speaker C:It is now that I think that my son is 11.
Speaker C:I just.
Speaker B:The innocence of that age.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And to imagine him, you know, going through secret pain and wanting to help him.
Speaker A:I'd imagine that's on your mind.
Speaker C:That is actually.
Speaker C:That's breaking my heart now more than thinking of little me.
Speaker C:To think a year on from my son now doing that.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:And of course, we're trying here to explore the stories that lead us.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:To everything that eventuates.
Speaker B:So, you know, maybe you could paint the picture for us a little bit more of the younger you like.
Speaker A:You mean prior to this?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I know there was something pre 12, there was lots that was fascinating in your book.
Speaker B:But you mentioned when you were around five, some really difficult experiences over in Adelaide.
Speaker B:Maybe you could take us back and just tell us about some of the events that led up to you.
Speaker C:I always get emotional when I talk about this.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Looking back on my whole life now, I think because of my personality, I've been loud, I've been confident, I've been this.
Speaker C:I've often been accused of being a bully.
Speaker C:And looking back in high school, absolutely, I would have been at some stages for sure, but I've been bullied a lot and it's taken me this long.
Speaker C:Well, I would argue it still happens.
Speaker C:Adults can be the worst bullies.
Speaker C:But, yeah, I take you back to.
Speaker C:I was five, six years old.
Speaker C:I was in prep over in Adelaide, and my dad was coaching the Adelaide Crows.
Speaker C:They were not doing very well and we were ostracized at school.
Speaker C:Not just me, all my sisters.
Speaker C:We often ate our cheese sandwiches in the principal's office at lunchtime.
Speaker C:Looking back, I don't know if that was guided by the school, by my parents, by us.
Speaker C:I can't remember.
Speaker C:But I do remember being asked to go to the office at lunchtime and walk in and my sisters are there with their unpacked lunchbox.
Speaker C:And I just think, oh, I'm having.
Speaker C:Having a picnic in the principal's office with my sisters.
Speaker C:I remember I have a vision of my mom early in the morning.
Speaker C:I was trying to find her in the morning, where are you?
Speaker C:And she was on her hands and her knees in her slippers and her dressing gown.
Speaker C:The sun hadn't even come up yet.
Speaker C:Scrubbing eggs off my dad's car, you know, trying to clean it before he woke up to go to work.
Speaker C:I also remember me and my sisters thinking it was a game of running out the front.
Speaker C:And we'd hear it and we'd run out the front and who could collect the most eggshells off our front?
Speaker C:Por that was a game for us.
Speaker C:Not realizing what was actually happening, really.
Speaker A:Harassed and under attack.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then our friend was.
Speaker C:Ended up being our friend who we'd wave to when we went to school, was a security guard that sat in the car at the front of our house.
Speaker C:And again, not understanding these things at the time, being like, hey, he's our friend, but not knowing that our family and our home needed to be protected at that time.
Speaker C:So, yeah, the worst experience of my life to date was being a little girl.
Speaker C:And again, my memory is so blurred because I was so young and a bunch of kids came up to me at school, boys, older boys, you know, your dad's a loser, your dad's a dickhead.
Speaker C:Surrounded me, you know, crying, I'm not playing with anyone already pushed me to the ground, kicked me, wouldn't let me get up.
Speaker C:And then my sisters ran over and I just remember reaching out and she just stood there because she was too scared to help me.
Speaker C:And so that, that was, that was a horrible experience.
Speaker C:Now, I don't know if that from that moment I built this facade of things don't bother me or things don't affect me, but again, I look back now with my own children and I cannot fathom that happening to them.
Speaker A:I mean, that's awful to hear that story over a football game, over anything.
Speaker A:But, yeah, just that kind of pack mentality, the mob coming after you as a kid.
Speaker C:But also that those kids have been taught that from somewhere, go to school and tell them their dad sucks.
Speaker C:You know, these were kids as well, and they've been, you know.
Speaker A:Did your mum and dad know you'd experienced that?
Speaker C:I can't remember, honestly.
Speaker C:My sister who, who ran over, she does.
Speaker C:And she, you know, I wrote it in my book and.
Speaker C:And she had sort of blacked it out of her memory until she reread it and she was traumatized because she goes, I'll never forget looking at you.
Speaker C:And I, I didn't help you, I couldn't help you.
Speaker A:Quite a powerful image, like reaching out for that support and.
Speaker C:Or just seeing her coming and almost feeling that sense of like, oh, my big sister's coming, but then her just stopping because I can't do anything right now for you.
Speaker A:So it's interesting again, like, just hearing you say, I had every opportunity.
Speaker A:And, you know, you did in some ways, but you also had some serious vulnerabilities and things that I think would have made you feel quite unsafe.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think it is easy to go, oh, yeah, but I had a good life and my parents loved me.
Speaker C:I think it's really easy to disregard a lot of major things that have happened because a lot of things were good.
Speaker C:But, yeah, it's not until I talk about them, I'm like, wow, that was actually really bad.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, thanks for sharing.
Speaker B:I mean, another thing I'd be really fascinated to hear, like, you've already spoken about your parents in a really beautiful, glowing light, and, you know, you're appreciating them more and more as you become a parent.
Speaker B:We've experienced the same thing.
Speaker B:There was a few things in your book that really caught my attention, though.
Speaker B:You joked about the idea that your dad kind of saw you as.
Speaker B:How did you describe it?
Speaker C:He's a little boy.
Speaker B:You're a boy experiment.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, obviously, you shared a lot of loving memories with the sport, but can you tell us what that dynamic was like and maybe the expectation that was there for to engage in sport?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Actually, now that you've said that, you know, everyone has joked to my dad his whole life that, you know, I bet you wish Soph was a boy.
Speaker C:And still to this day, he's adamant.
Speaker C:He gets really angry when people say it.
Speaker C:He's like, no.
Speaker C:But I do look back now, and I'm like, none of the other girls were put in cricket at 5.
Speaker C:None of the others were taught how to kick a footy at the age of four.
Speaker C:None of the others were in boxing lessons.
Speaker C:So, you know, maybe he just thought, oh, I have some fun with this one.
Speaker C:Or the others have sort of going all in the same direction, and they.
Speaker A:Knew they weren't maybe having any other kids.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I don't look at it in any other way, but sort of almost.
Speaker C:Of course he did that.
Speaker C:Like, he had played foot.
Speaker C:He got drafted, I think, at 16 years old from Tassie.
Speaker C:And, you know, he.
Speaker C:He can tell me all he wants.
Speaker C:He can say it all he wants.
Speaker C:No, never.
Speaker C:No, no, dad, I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm realistic.
Speaker C:I'm not.
Speaker C:That doesn't mean he doesn't love me.
Speaker C:It doesn't mean he didn't love me at the time, but he's absolutely kidding when he tries to tell me I wasn.
Speaker C:You know, I was hoping you're a boy like you were.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:And it's okay.
Speaker C:It's okay to say that as well,.
Speaker B:But you loved your sport and.
Speaker B:Of course I did.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be a boy thing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:And he probably realized too.
Speaker C:And I can, I can say this, I was good at it too.
Speaker C:Like, I picked up things really young.
Speaker C:My mum used to say it, 18 months old or two, you know, the totem tennis, the old.
Speaker C:She said you would just stand there as a toddler in a nappy.
Speaker C:No, just me and just the hand.
Speaker C:Eye coordination.
Speaker C:And so they.
Speaker C:And my mum too.
Speaker C:It looks like my parents were like trying to build me or mold me into being some professional athlete.
Speaker C:But I enjoyed it.
Speaker C:I loved everything.
Speaker C:So when my sisters were at school, I have memories of my mum and I standing in the kitchen and she'd make me bounce tennis balls, like, you know, opposite hands to learn how to catch both hands.
Speaker C:But I loved, I was like, all right, what can I do next?
Speaker C:Like, teach me something else.
Speaker C:So it wasn't like they weren't chaining me up, you know, to train.
Speaker C:I was like, give me something else to do.
Speaker C:I'm going to show you I can do it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, I liked being good at things from an early age.
Speaker A:Oh, that's great.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But did you feel pressure around it?
Speaker C:No, not at all.
Speaker C:I think I did feel pressure when I was a teenager when it was sort of, you know, you hit that teenage age where, you know, you've represented Victoria in a sport or you've, you've made this team.
Speaker C:We've made that.
Speaker C:And there comes a point now, I know when it's like you need to choose whether you are committing or you're going to fall away.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that's when probably the pressure started.
Speaker C:But I.
Speaker A:What age are we talking there?
Speaker C:15, 16, 17.
Speaker C:I, I did my.
Speaker C:I'd made the under 15 Victorian netball team.
Speaker C:So you sort of go up in the pathway if you make the under 12, 15, 17.
Speaker C:Normally, if you're still in it around the 17s, you're normally around 18.
Speaker C:That age picked up by now it would be a super netball team.
Speaker C:So, you know, I was on every pathway.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I did my ACL at the age of 14, which a 14 year old girl, it might be common now.
Speaker C:It wasn't really common back then and I remember when I did it, I just made the team.
Speaker C:But I was playing in my, my local Thursday night team and big pop in my knee and my mum was just devastated and I was like, oh, I've just got an injury.
Speaker C:Like, I remember it really hurt and I remember being like, I felt like someone just shot me in the kneecap.
Speaker C:But at that age, I Didn't comprehend how serious it could be.
Speaker C:Long story short, groundbreaking.
Speaker C:I'd done my ACL and within two days I was in with Julian Fella, the head afl.
Speaker C:You know, he does all the boys and these are the privileged things I talk about, right.
Speaker C:I spoke to two professional AFL sports doctors on that night and within 48 hours I'd had a knee reco by Julian Fella.
Speaker A:Unbelievable.
Speaker C:I did my whole rehab in the Essendon Football Club.
Speaker C:I had access to every one of their doctors.
Speaker C:I was bringing home their ice machines.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And I look back, I'm like, my parents did everything again to give me every opportunity to get back.
Speaker C:And I did got back in 10 months, which is two months shorter than what they guide you that you're going to get back.
Speaker C:And from that moment I think I'd mentally logged out.
Speaker C:I look back and I just wasn't prepared to work hard.
Speaker C:You know, my dad.
Speaker C:My dad can't even run and he was down doing my straight line running with me.
Speaker C:Like they did everything to get me back.
Speaker C:So it wasn't pressure.
Speaker C:No, it was, I see it that they provided me with opportunity because they, again, they believed in me.
Speaker C:And so when at 16, sort of a year, you know, went back, played a year, I think I got.
Speaker A:You made the call.
Speaker A:I don't want to pursue this anymore.
Speaker C:Well, after that, you know, I think I fell into a little bit of the typical teenage.
Speaker C:I'm going out, I'm doing this, I just.
Speaker C:You don't know me, I just need to be myself.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And like, I. I was never into drugs or anything, anything like that, so I didn't rebel in that sense.
Speaker C:But my friends and my family like, let me be, let me do this and let me do that.
Speaker C:And I can see now that, oh, wow.
Speaker C:I'm looking back at all these things, I'm like, oh, my God.
Speaker C:My parents provided me with every opportunity possible.
Speaker A:So sometimes when we start our conversation, we begin with some photos, but we've just got right into the chat today, which has been really lovely.
Speaker A:But have you brought some photos you might like to share with us and, and describe for our listeners?
Speaker C:Yeah, I have.
Speaker C:This photo is of me.
Speaker C:I probably am about six months old there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's just.
Speaker C:There was something powerful about that photo because I can see my daughter in me.
Speaker C:I look exactly like her.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:And I know I love holding my baby now and I'm like my mum holding me.
Speaker C:It's just no different.
Speaker C:That has never changed.
Speaker C:I have still.
Speaker C:I have always been her baby and I Always will.
Speaker C:Regardless of how old and grown up I think I have been over the years.
Speaker C:She's still watching her baby do things for the first time, just like I'm seeing my baby do things for the first time.
Speaker A:Oh, that's lovely.
Speaker A:And did you have a photo with your siblings you wanted to show?
Speaker C:I do.
Speaker A:So this is a photo of the, the four of you in bed together.
Speaker C:My oldest sister in your pajamas.
Speaker C:That is Zoe.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that is Amy.
Speaker C:And I've always been able to tell them apart from every photo, even when they're babies.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that's a sister trick.
Speaker C:But just the, the memories I have of it was almost like sleepovers every night with my sisters.
Speaker C:Whether that was just our life, but it was just so much fun.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Even now, like when we all get together, it's pretty much just, it's those four girls again.
Speaker A:And what did you feel like babied by them a little bit as well?
Speaker A:Was there a kind of motherly thing about them at times?
Speaker A:Because you were the.
Speaker C:No, if anything, I was, you know, all right, we're playing mums and dads, you're the dad.
Speaker C:Or we're playing cops and robbers, you're the robber.
Speaker C:Like, I was, I always got given this job and I just had to cop it like it was bad luck.
Speaker C:So I just, I did what I was told.
Speaker C:I, I got given what role I got given.
Speaker C:I got told to stand there, do this, do that.
Speaker C:And maybe now that's why I, when I do reflect, I'm like, maybe that's why I like to do all this stuff now because, like, I, I'm in control now.
Speaker B:Yeah, you get the good role.
Speaker C:Yeah, I get to choose what my role is now.
Speaker A:And you had described that kind of, you know, like maybe part of your extroversion was a please see me, please notice me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you think you did feel noticed and seen?
Speaker C:No, I don't think so.
Speaker C:In the first sort of decade of my life, like I said, it's just a blur.
Speaker C:It was just fast paced.
Speaker C:Go in the car, toy shoes yourself, grab this, grab that.
Speaker C:But I don't think, no, I was seen unless it was sport related in those.
Speaker C:That's when it started to really.
Speaker C:And it's not, I don't say that of a place of resentment or anything.
Speaker A:It was just how the fact.
Speaker C:It's just real life.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I now have kids of my own and I now am so intentional with spending individual time with them.
Speaker C:So it's really important for me.
Speaker C:It's so Hard, I understand the balance is hard.
Speaker A:That's a correction you're trying to make based on what you went through.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think I always wanted my mum to be my best friend and I wanted that girlfriend's relationship with my mom.
Speaker C:Let's, you know, in your teenager, let's talk about boys, let's talk about this.
Speaker C:And I never had it.
Speaker C:My mum was, like I said, she ran a tight ship.
Speaker C:She was a teacher by trade.
Speaker C:There was rules, there was boundaries, there was this.
Speaker C:And I tried to crack her and then when I realized at 16, 17, I couldn't crack her, I pulled back from her and you're horrible.
Speaker C:And you're this and you're that.
Speaker A:Was there warmth and affection when you were younger?
Speaker C:Not as much as I'd probably wanted.
Speaker C:And it took me a really long time again being in a place of acceptance, of learning that people don't always love you in the way that you want to be loved and it doesn't mean they don't love you.
Speaker C:Like my mum was very action based.
Speaker C:So if we'd had even, even now to this day, she'll come over and I'm like, mum, sit down, have a cup of tea, let's just chat.
Speaker C:But she's, she'll clean my house or she'll do the kids rooms or she'll do that.
Speaker A:And which I'm sure is enormously valued.
Speaker A:And now you probably feel very loved when she.
Speaker C:Oh my God, of course.
Speaker C:But I'm like, that's how she shows her love.
Speaker C:And it took me a very long time to be okay with that.
Speaker C:I wanted her to call me babe and sit on the couch and like, so how was the party?
Speaker C:Or like to be the friend.
Speaker C:And both of us took a long time, probably 25, 30 years I would say to accept the love from each other.
Speaker B:And that's beautiful that you can understand it like that now.
Speaker C:It took me a long time to understand it.
Speaker C:We used to butt heads, my mum and I. Yeah.
Speaker C:Especially through my late teenage years and all through my 20s, I demanded this love and affection from her that I was.
Speaker A:It sounds like an anger came out.
Speaker C:Anger came out and, and just a.
Speaker C:Why.
Speaker B:But you mentioned in the book that you didn't hear I love you very much very often.
Speaker C:Again, it's, it's that lack of really emotional connection wasn't a lack of love though, it was a lack of a verbal but that now understanding as a woman that is just my mum in who she is.
Speaker A:So I can't help but think of you though as a 12 year old, you know, secretly self harming.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Desperately wanting to feel love.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're getting feeling this other way, this kind of secret painful way.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And like, I don't know, maybe.
Speaker C:Maybe I wished that she'd seen it so she might have grabbed me and hugged me.
Speaker A:Well, that would make a lot of sense.
Speaker A:But she didn't know you were going through that?
Speaker C:No, she did not know.
Speaker C:Have any idea?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Do you think you were lonely during those years?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah, I do.
Speaker C:I think I was lonely a lot in my life.
Speaker C:Despite being surrounded by a lot of people.
Speaker C:I was just trying so hard to figure out who I was or fit in that, that felt like something that I knew well.
Speaker A:The cost of not feeling seen or really, you know, loved in the way you desired to be loved.
Speaker A:Yeah, I could imagine that would feel lonely.
Speaker A:And what about school at that point?
Speaker A:You've told us about school being tricky when you were around five.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:What about high school?
Speaker C:So again, I go back to that bullying aspect and, and again in high school I can admit I wasn't the greatest friend all the time either.
Speaker C:I certainly had my faults.
Speaker C:But I do reflect a lot of periods in my life where really mean girls, really nasty girls who just shut me out all the time.
Speaker C:That, that has happened a lot to me in my life where my closest friends have all of a sudden banded together and just gone, can be very cruel with no explanation.
Speaker A:And how do you experience that when it happened?
Speaker C:Oh, it's horrific.
Speaker C:Oh, I know how I dealt with it.
Speaker C:Oh, I don't care.
Speaker C:And I always cared.
Speaker C:It always hurts so much every time it happened.
Speaker A:You alluded to something before that sometimes people have accused you of being the bully, which is not an uncommon thing.
Speaker A:Almost like a defense mechanism or playing out what's happened to us and try and regain some power.
Speaker A:We can find ourselves doing that to others.
Speaker A:Did that become a trend?
Speaker C:I've always been quite defensive and reactive.
Speaker C:That's something I've really worked on in the past couple of years and I've definitely got better at it.
Speaker C:But you know, once upon a time I would say I loved confrontation.
Speaker C:I loved standing up or, you know, arguing.
Speaker C:I loved arguing and.
Speaker C:But I also think, and it's not to make excuses, but I, I was a very.
Speaker C:Doesn't sound like I was, but I, I believed I was a very sure of myself person.
Speaker C:I was very confident.
Speaker C:And from an early age it made a lot of people very uncomfortable.
Speaker A:Yes, but they might have also assumed that you were fine.
Speaker C:That's been the biggest fault my whole life.
Speaker C:Everyone, my life has assumed I'm fine.
Speaker B:Yeah, because you appear so self assured.
Speaker C:Because I appear just so fine.
Speaker A:But you're talking about a kind of, you know, insecure or fragile underbelly that people didn't get to see.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But also just there is, there always was and there definitely is now.
Speaker C:There's a really kind, empathetic person inside.
Speaker C:And I know that I am so confident in that.
Speaker C:But as a woman, which we see quite a lot, any, any woman who has any, any confidence or any toughness or any, just any ounce of being sure in who they are or being okay with who they are, good, bad or ugly, is like there's a pushback.
Speaker C:And so I've never, always really struggled with the feminism message of, you know, be your, you know, stand up.
Speaker C:I feel like as a woman, once you've done that, you're torn down.
Speaker C:You're torn down by other women.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:So I always got along with boys better.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:So they would respond well to you being assertive.
Speaker C:Yeah, fine.
Speaker C:They were okay with it.
Speaker C:Girls were never okay with it.
Speaker B:Do you think they were threatened?
Speaker C:I do.
Speaker C:And I still do think.
Speaker C:And I'm not just talking about myself.
Speaker C:I'm talking about any self assured woman or any person.
Speaker C:Any person.
Speaker C:And people confuse with me being confident or, or liking who I am as that I think I'm amazing.
Speaker C:That's absolutely not the case.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:I am far from it, but I'm okay with that.
Speaker C:And that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
Speaker C:And it's certainly in my life has made other females uncomfortable.
Speaker B:And you think that's because of the messaging that they received about what their role should be?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Or just I, I feel like too.
Speaker C:And I'm trying to really instill it into my daughter now.
Speaker C:Girls are very like pack mentality.
Speaker C:Young girls are not often brave enough to go, no, actually I don't, I don't like that.
Speaker C:And I was always that girl to go, I don't, I don't like sitting here talking about people or oh, we're gonna braid each other's hair today.
Speaker C:Oh, I don't want to.
Speaker C:I'm gonna go kick the footy with the boys.
Speaker C:Oh, well, we don't like you anymore.
Speaker C:It was always okay from a young age to make my own decision without being influenced.
Speaker C:And that especially I found like boys at that age.
Speaker C:I don't care about that stuff.
Speaker C:You want to play soccer today?
Speaker C:I don't care.
Speaker C:Bye.
Speaker C:See, I'll see you in class with the Girls, you know, you should want to be with your girlfriends all the time.
Speaker C:You should want to walk around holding hands.
Speaker C:But I always wanted to do what I wanted to do and so I never fell into that.
Speaker A:Well, that, that part sounds healthy, that girl.
Speaker C:Yeah, it does.
Speaker C:But it has caused me a lot.
Speaker B:Of issues in my life or isolation from the girls.
Speaker C:Isolation.
Speaker B:Did you have any close girlfriends through that period?
Speaker C:I always have.
Speaker C:Always close friends.
Speaker C:But there would always be a. Oh, Sophie.
Speaker C:Like of course you'd say that.
Speaker C:You know, there's always a comment if I thought something different or if I wanted to do something different or if I was proud of something and said, oh, I really like, oh, I think I look nice today or you know, anything.
Speaker C:Oh, Sophie.
Speaker C:Like the amount of times I heard that my whole life.
Speaker B:Oh, that's just.
Speaker C:Sophie.
Speaker C:Well, what does that mean?
Speaker A:So I'm curious, like adding all these things together, looking back, what do you think your true self worth was like as a kid?
Speaker C:Yeah, I've often thought about that.
Speaker C:Horrible.
Speaker A:You do you think it was bad?
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:And, and of course, you know, the self harm would suggest there's something about that, that I really don't like myself very much potentially.
Speaker A:But why do you say very bad?
Speaker A:What, what comes to mind?
Speaker C:I just think the way I treated myself in those times and I also think which did follow through to my adulthood, the way I allowed myself to be treated, whether that was friends, relationships, people, by acting like it didn't bother me, when it did, the wall went up and it did bother me, but I pretended it is so allowing or continually putting myself in those positions and staying there.
Speaker A:I see.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So people are treating you badly and you're going, that's fine, I don't care.
Speaker C:Whatever didn't bother me, I'll still see you tomorrow.
Speaker C:Whether it did bother and I didn't tell them it bothered me, I just pretended I didn't care.
Speaker C:So I think that really shows the lack of respect I had for myself.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Did you have that front when you were alone as well?
Speaker B:Like did that kind of act that you were playing out, was it just socially or was that a story you were telling yourself?
Speaker C:Oh, I was definitely telling myself that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But then when we returned to the self harm moment, I wasn't telling myself in that moment.
Speaker C:I was saying, you're stupid, you're an.
Speaker B:Idiot, you're fighting against it.
Speaker A:Oh, the narrative was self flagellating while you were self harm idiot.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So it's interesting when you say you loved it, there was There was a rush, there was adrenaline that the pain would cause.
Speaker C:I loved hurting myself.
Speaker C:I wanted to cause myself.
Speaker A:Because you thought you deserved.
Speaker C:Because clearly.
Speaker A:Gosh, that's sad.
Speaker A:How does that feel to think back to that time?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's.
Speaker C:There is a sadness to it, but there's a great sense of pride knowing I got myself out of that.
Speaker B:Right, good.
Speaker A:Tell us about that.
Speaker C: ast time I self harmed was in: Speaker C:So we're only going back three years ago.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:It was after a relationship breakdown.
Speaker C:And afterwards my best friend said to me, because she was aware of it, she knew that I'd struggled with it off and on and she knew that I had done it.
Speaker C:She rang me, she lived in Gold coast at the time.
Speaker C:And she said, please don't tell me if her yourself.
Speaker C:Like she knew I had.
Speaker C:And I said, yeah.
Speaker C:And she said, don't you ever let anyone make you hurt yourself ever again.
Speaker C:And there was just a switch in me where those words from my best friend.
Speaker C:It was that I was not gonna let anyone make me do.
Speaker C:Not that they made me do that, but I made a decision in that moment.
Speaker C:I'm never gonna be in this position again.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Only three years ago.
Speaker A:Do you know that voice sounds kind of motherly to me from, you know, that directive?
Speaker C:Well, my best friend on the phone was very motherly.
Speaker C:And it was finger pointing on FaceTime and it was tears down or don't you fucking ever let anyone cause this again.
Speaker C:And I took that as me as well.
Speaker C:I can't let myself do this again.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's really powerful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So what.
Speaker A:Where does that.
Speaker A:That's like what, three years ago now?
Speaker A:So in the wake of that hasn't happened again.
Speaker C:Never.
Speaker A:What's happening there in terms of your self worth at this point, you know, from this.
Speaker C:Oh, there's definitely times I think about.
Speaker A:It, of course, but I don't want.
Speaker C:To be that person.
Speaker C:I don't want to.
Speaker C:I don't want to do that to myself anymore.
Speaker A:I think it's worth recognizing that like, you know, you would have heard us say on this podcast, like we kind of our child self doesn't leave us and the things we go through as kids, they're still relevant.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now so the fact that under duress, you know, in moments of great stress.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've kind of reverted back to this childhood coping mechanism.
Speaker A:Secret this pain doesn't surprise me.
Speaker A:But bringing it out into the open and recognizing I need to stop this.
Speaker C:Pattern and yes, I needed to break that pattern I didn't want to be that person.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:The rest of my life.
Speaker C:And I didn't deserve it either, because it did.
Speaker C:Like I said, you remove the adrenaline and you move the emotion from that moment.
Speaker C:The next day, it really hurts.
Speaker C:And that's when all.
Speaker C:Once all that emotion had gone and I'd sort of calmed and all of that.
Speaker C:And I'm sitting there going, oh, you're an idiot.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:Why'd you do that to you?
Speaker C:And that's when I'd be like, why are you doing this?
Speaker C:You don't think that logic in the moment.
Speaker C:But the reality is I'm putting Betadine on my legs, my arms, my.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:My.
Speaker C:I used to crush glass in my hands.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so my hands would be all cut up.
Speaker C:And then the next day I go, I've got to go to work or I've got to look after the kids.
Speaker C:And I can't do.
Speaker C:Like, it just.
Speaker C:It didn't serve my life.
Speaker C:Not that it ever did, but I had more.
Speaker C:More.
Speaker C:I had.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker A:I think it's very brave of you to talk about this so openly, perhaps in a way that you can't.
Speaker C:The only time.
Speaker C:No, I've never.
Speaker C:The only time is in my book.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:No, but I think too, because I'm at a point where I know I will never do it again.
Speaker A:Well, that's terrific.
Speaker A:So there's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's growth that's happening for you in real time, which is great to see you, but thanks for sharing that because obviously there'll be people who've experienced themselves.
Speaker A:There'll be people.
Speaker C:Sorry, I've made this a really heavy episode, haven't I?
Speaker B:Thank you for being honest.
Speaker B:We've got the space to do it here.
Speaker A:There'll also be people worried about their kids listening to that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I guess.
Speaker A:I want to ask you, what do you wish your parents had said or asked or noticed that might.
Speaker A:Because, you know, you're telling us they've got this yearning to be seen and heard.
Speaker A:What do you wish your parents had said to you during that period?
Speaker C:I wish that mental health had been a more recognized.
Speaker A:You mean in society or just at home?
Speaker C:In society.
Speaker C:And therefore I think it would have been more recognized within my home.
Speaker B:So it wasn't discussed at all how you were feeling.
Speaker C:And at times I remember we're going 15, 16, 17 again in that time where I say, I sort of pushed away from my mum, trying to open up.
Speaker C:I think I need to speak to a psychologist.
Speaker C:What do you need to do?
Speaker C:That for.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It was shut down.
Speaker C:Shut down.
Speaker C:So I wish if there's one thing I could change, I wish that that had been encouraged, that it had been.
Speaker A:Taken seriously and that you'd been given therapeutic help back then.
Speaker C:Because I knew that there was something wrong with me and I did want to fix it.
Speaker C:So it's not like I was in denial myself.
Speaker C:I knew, I knew a lot of my childhood and my adolescence especially that my, my brain wasn't working proper.
Speaker C:You know, I didn't need to be talking to myself like this.
Speaker C: I've been medicated now since: Speaker C:I look at it like I need my brain to work better to its, you know, best ability.
Speaker C:So I take my tablet.
Speaker A:I think your transparency around this is really refreshing and helpful.
Speaker C:Well, I just think there's this whole side to me that people wouldn't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's not that I need to prove it, but I suppose it's just a, an opportunity for, you know, life's hard.
Speaker C:I wrote this in my letter, like life is hard.
Speaker C:And that's what I've realized as I've gotten older again, life is hard for everybody.
Speaker C:And I believe mental health affects everyone in some shape or form, whether that's themselves family member.
Speaker C:Like everyone really does struggle with something.
Speaker C:And I'm far.
Speaker C:There's more to me than standing in a pajama photo shoot on your phone, on your app.
Speaker A:And I'm curious about this because I'm thinking now in the context of your career, which I'm sure people listening will know.
Speaker A:But for those that don't, you have a very large Instagram profile that you've spent a long time.
Speaker A:What was your initial title around the Mummy?
Speaker C:It was the Young Mummy.
Speaker C:Young mummy pregnant at 22.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you fell pregnant at 22.
Speaker A:You've had to figure out, right, what am I doing now?
Speaker A:Life's taken a big turn.
Speaker A:Maybe you could just paint the picture for us and tell us the story of how that career emerged and then we'll dig in.
Speaker C:So my background, I always studied journalism at uni, media and comms.
Speaker C:Loved that as a teenager too.
Speaker C:I was seeing my dad in footy.
Speaker C:I always saw the likes of Tiffany Cherry and Caroline Wilson and I saw these women in this male dominated space and it was footy.
Speaker C:I loved sport and I'm like, what a job.
Speaker C:I Love being on camera.
Speaker C:And I get to watch sport.
Speaker C:That's my dream.
Speaker C:So I go to my.
Speaker C:With my dad, to all the press conferences, and I just was like, that has to be me one day.
Speaker C:Was that uni was in my second year of sports journalism, doing really well, got pregnant, which I was happy with.
Speaker C:I was.
Speaker C:I was fine with.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:Young, pregnant boyfriend on a rookie wage at a footy club.
Speaker C:But very much didn't want a handout.
Speaker C:So I quickly learned I needed to find a different avenue to make money.
Speaker C:I couldn't.
Speaker C:I was working at a.
Speaker C:At High Point at a clothing store.
Speaker C:I couldn't.
Speaker C:I did that while I was pregnant until I couldn't.
Speaker A:But journalism didn't seem possible at that moment.
Speaker C:Not possible.
Speaker C:And I always.
Speaker C:I did.
Speaker C:I went to uni until I was like six, seven months pregnant, but at that moment, it needed to pause and.
Speaker C:And then I found myself having that.
Speaker C:You know, there was an itch I needed to scratch.
Speaker C:I needed to write, I needed to produce, I needed to connect somewhere.
Speaker C:And this, the idea of just like jotting down my thoughts about my pregnancy and storytelling just came so naturally.
Speaker C:And this was before even Instagram was even a thing.
Speaker C:This was just a traditional WordPress blog post that I started.
Speaker A:Yeah, I remember those.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I really just did it, like, for myself.
Speaker C:I just needed that creative outlet.
Speaker C:And, yeah, the first one I did, hundreds of thousands of views.
Speaker C:I don't even know how people saw it.
Speaker C:I was in the back end.
Speaker C:I didn't even know how to work this website.
Speaker A:So strange.
Speaker C:It was so odd.
Speaker C:Like, you got to remember this is before anything on social media.
Speaker C:And I'm like, well, really, I don't know if you swear on here.
Speaker C:I know I have, but I'm like, have all these people from the uk, you know, like, what is going on?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But then I was getting, like, again, in the back end of what?
Speaker C:WordPress, these emails from people, like, hey, I loved it.
Speaker C:When.
Speaker C:When's your next one?
Speaker C:I was like, people want me to actually do this?
Speaker C:So I did, and I started writing, you know, twice weekly, just what I was experiencing.
Speaker C:And I think at the time, I provided a really refreshing, authentic, honest storytelling of my experiences.
Speaker C:And then Instagram sort of came into it later.
Speaker C:So Instagram again at the time wasn't.
Speaker C:Wasn't a strategy.
Speaker C:It was anything was simply an app.
Speaker C:We uploaded a photo with an ugly filter on it.
Speaker C:But I remember Beck Judd, you know, Chris Judd's wife, the hottest thing at the time.
Speaker C:She shared one of my blog posts and then it goes up again, goes up again, bang, bang, bang.
Speaker C:And then very quickly, I had a message from Target over their Instagram and said, can we pay you $150?
Speaker C:And I went, my God, to just to take a free clothes firstly.
Speaker C:But $150.
Speaker A:I feel like you might have been the first influencer.
Speaker C:I was.
Speaker C:I will.
Speaker C:I can confidently say I was the first sort of mummy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Blogger in this space.
Speaker C:Influencers back then or bloggers was Perez Hilton from America.
Speaker C:And then your traditional wags in the media, the big dogs, Beck Judge.
Speaker C:Sharing my post.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it seems like you're doing it differently.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:As in, you were being very open and honest.
Speaker C:I knew for me, right.
Speaker C:I told this story before I was 22 or 23.
Speaker C:By the time I had Bobby, I was vomiting so much being pregnant.
Speaker C:I remember.
Speaker C:I'm sorry, we've just gone from really emotional to.
Speaker C:I vomited so much one time I shit myself when I was pregnant.
Speaker C:We've gone there and I remember going, why does no one tell you this?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:I'm growing this facial hair, my boobs are horrendous, all this stuff.
Speaker C:And I'm like, back then, it's so normal now.
Speaker C:But this is going back then.
Speaker C:12 Years ago, you told those stories, there was nothing.
Speaker C:And I was like, oh, my God, I'm growing hair in places I shouldn't ever see.
Speaker C:And I just started writing it and I wrote it, as I'm saying now, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker C:And people like, oh, I love this.
Speaker C:It was so refreshing.
Speaker C:So I think I was one of the first in that.
Speaker C:Those early days to create a space of such honesty and authenticity.
Speaker C:It didn't exist back then and it does now, but it didn't back then.
Speaker C:So it was just like, whether Pete, like I said those.
Speaker C:All those people that were reading it, a lot of it would have just been like, oh, my God, have you seen this?
Speaker A:Quite interesting, the contrast there, right where you've.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker A:You found this true authentic expression in that area.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But you've explained to us your sense of self over here was kind of not, you know, like there was a secret.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The hardened, like.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I look back now and I can.
Speaker C:I can admit I wouldn't have at the time that I. I did want that attention, I did want that notoriety.
Speaker C:I wanted the fame, I wanted people to know me.
Speaker C:And I think.
Speaker C:But it wasn't because I was so actually unhappy and I wanted to look this and I want it to be here and I want it to be that.
Speaker B:And the fact that you did it with authenticity.
Speaker C:I did it with authenticity and writing about things that no one would have.
Speaker C:But I did love the attention it did bring in.
Speaker A:It makes so much sense and I guess.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, no criticism to your mum.
Speaker A:I know that you're saying, like, she loved you in the way that she was capable of, but you were desperately wanting a certain kind of love.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And now it feels like you're getting it from hundreds of thousands.
Speaker C:I was getting it from strangers on the Internet.
Speaker A:I can imagine that would have been quite a rush.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:And I was getting paid for it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:From my couch.
Speaker C:Breastfeeding my baby.
Speaker C:It was a dream.
Speaker B:I'd love to know a bit more about what that feels like.
Speaker B:Having hundreds of thousands of people affirm you.
Speaker B:But of course, it's just on a screen.
Speaker B:You're not face to face with anyone.
Speaker B:So what are the limits of that affection?
Speaker B:What did it actually do for you?
Speaker B:And what.
Speaker B:What was still missing?
Speaker C:It's just so instantaneous.
Speaker C:Like, it's so.
Speaker C:It was just being liked by so many people.
Speaker C:It was so exciting.
Speaker C:It was so fulfilling.
Speaker A:Even though it was very seen.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That was a missing ingredient.
Speaker A:And now it's happening.
Speaker C:And everyone likes social media until they're not liked.
Speaker C:Social media is great when everyone's like, you look amazing.
Speaker C:Like, like.
Speaker C:Like love, heart.
Speaker C:Love, heart.
Speaker C:That's what social media is.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker C:You love it for that.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:To be seen.
Speaker C:But also there is that if.
Speaker C:If no one wanted to be on social media for that validation point of it, they wouldn't have the, like, tools, the comment tools, all of that.
Speaker B:But I guess I'm wondering, was it actually validating how much of a simulation of real interaction it is?
Speaker C:Only temporarily.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then you'd post another one.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:To get you high.
Speaker C:It's sort of like everything I'm going back to is like the cigarette theory.
Speaker C:Like it was.
Speaker C:And then it'd go away.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:So I need to post again.
Speaker A:Out.
Speaker C:And then post again.
Speaker C:And then you fall into the trap of everything I was doing.
Speaker C:Oh, I have to share this because this is so cute.
Speaker C:I have to share this.
Speaker C:You know?
Speaker C:And then you just fall into it.
Speaker C:Into it.
Speaker A:I guess I'm curious, though, about.
Speaker A:You've done that for, like, 12 years or something.
Speaker A:The pressure to continually keep that kind of performative public Persona going.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:What's that like?
Speaker C:And it is.
Speaker C:It's performative.
Speaker C:Good or bad.
Speaker A:Huh?
Speaker A:You got to keep the wheel spinning.
Speaker C:You got to keep the wheel spinning.
Speaker C:But you can't be too good, you've got to show a bit of bad.
Speaker C:You can't be too bad because then people go, oh well, you're too depressing.
Speaker C:So you've, you gotta constantly cater to so many different varying opinions.
Speaker A:Do you ever think, I've had it, I don't want to do this anymore?
Speaker A:What's that like?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Been many a times, probably once I turned 30, where I was like, is this worth it?
Speaker C:Like my mental health, the negative media, the click baities, things being included in, things I didn't even want to be included in for sure.
Speaker C:There's been many times I said, I'm done, I'm done.
Speaker C:But I go back to that reality.
Speaker C:At that point I'd become divorced, my husband, I've got my kids, you know, this, this makes me money and, and it made me a lot of money at that time.
Speaker C:You just have to put up with it because you got to put this roof over your kid's head.
Speaker C:And, and I would.
Speaker C:My manager, who is now my very good friend I've worked very close with, I've had many conversations where I said this is.
Speaker C:And he goes, that's fine, so delete it all, go work a normal job and do the grind.
Speaker C:And I say I don't want to.
Speaker C:And he's like, well, you know what you're doing, you know.
Speaker C:So whilst I don't accept vile behavior, there are a lot of parts of it you just have to tolerate if this is the life that you want.
Speaker A:So I guess I'm thinking with regards to the last few years and you making choices about how you're going to treat yourself going forward and trying to treat yourself more kindly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I wonder if there's a way to do it and integrate it more healthily, like in a way that doesn't kind of, I don't know.
Speaker C:Well, I've certainly.
Speaker C:And you hear this all the time.
Speaker C:I've pulled back, I have completely shifted the way that I put myself out there on social media.
Speaker C:I have completely pulled back on the intimate family privacy.
Speaker C:You know, once upon a time I would let everyone into every aspect of my home.
Speaker C:And I'm mortified that I did that.
Speaker C:It worked at the time.
Speaker C:It worked.
Speaker C:It served me at the time.
Speaker A:Modified.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker C:Because every person, no matter who you are, deserves privacy.
Speaker C:Every.
Speaker C:And privacy is beautiful.
Speaker C:Privacy is so magical and it's yours.
Speaker C:And you have control over who gets to in that private bubble.
Speaker C:And so now being so in control and having very strong boundaries in, in who gets to come into that bubble.
Speaker C:So whilst yes, I still do have social media and I do still share quite a lot, it often looks like a lot more shared than actually is.
Speaker C:And the reality is I have a business, a sleepwear business or E commerce, marketing.
Speaker C:Everything is online these days.
Speaker C:So there is an aspect where work.
Speaker C:Sophie, as a co founder of a business, you can't have a business these days without social media.
Speaker C:But in terms of the Sophie on her personal.
Speaker C:If I'm to be completely transparent, I wish I could pull back even more.
Speaker C:I can't right now, but I am working towards it.
Speaker B:Can I just clarify that regret you have there?
Speaker B:Is it about what you shared of yourself or the family that you brought in?
Speaker C:A lot of both.
Speaker C:A lot of both.
Speaker C:Once upon a time I would have said, I believed in that saying, don't regret anything at the time, it's what you wanted.
Speaker C:I have so many regrets of what I've done on social media.
Speaker C:So many.
Speaker C:But it's taught me what I don't want to do anymore.
Speaker C:So that's a turn, it's a positive,.
Speaker A:You know, for people listening to this who follow you with aspirations to maybe model some of the things you've done.
Speaker A:So many regrets.
Speaker C:With my children, with relationships, with family, with intimate.
Speaker C:Any intimate details?
Speaker C:No, I do, I have a lot of regrets.
Speaker C:But that's, you know, my sense is.
Speaker A:That attitudes to social media are shifting away from the personal like a little bit in general.
Speaker A:Like, I certainly feel that way.
Speaker C:I don't want to say it goes in waves.
Speaker C:It definitely goes in waves.
Speaker C:Something popped up on my feed the other day and it's just, it was the biggest contradiction to who I once was.
Speaker C:Another podcast popped up and it was two girls talking about how she was pregnant and sex with her husband or so.
Speaker C:And I went, oh, I scrolled up with a Once upon a time, that's all I talked about.
Speaker C:And I'm like, I'm normal.
Speaker C:I'm talking about sex and I'm talking about this and normal, normal, normal.
Speaker C:And I'm like, that's fine.
Speaker C:But it was just a, it was a really big wake up call for me of how far I've come because I thought, oh, I didn't, I didn't really want to hear that first thing in the morning whether people would argue I've built my whole platform off being that person.
Speaker C:That's fine.
Speaker B:Do you think part of the shift is thinking about your kids now and the current generations on social media?
Speaker C:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker C:But also just reflecting on a lot of choices.
Speaker C:I've made in the past, too, and protecting my own piece as well.
Speaker A:So this evolution you've been going through, it sounds like it's been progressive.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Cumulative.
Speaker A:And you've arrived at what feels like a new chapter.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:A really nice place, too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where do you want to take that?
Speaker C:Well, I just want to say that in the past, I've said that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm in a really nice place, and I've been completely lying, but I really do feel like.
Speaker C:And I'm not there.
Speaker C:I don't know if we ever get there completely, but I just.
Speaker C:I feel really nice now and just I can breathe a bit.
Speaker C:Where do I want to get to?
Speaker C:I would love to not even need my own personals.
Speaker C:I would love to build my business to the point where Sophie.
Speaker C:Keisha.
Speaker C:Doesn't need her own personal account.
Speaker C:Account.
Speaker A:You can step back completely.
Speaker A:And I would love to just do its thing.
Speaker C:I would love Keisha to be at a point where I'm no longer required to be public.
Speaker A:What about for you?
Speaker A:What do you want that step back?
Speaker C:That's exactly what I want.
Speaker A:Yourself.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Outside of the Internet.
Speaker C:And I would really like to revisit a lot of my passions that I once had, which is the journalism background, the.
Speaker C:This having conversations.
Speaker C:You know, I'm.
Speaker C:I'm so okay with being irrelevant now on social media.
Speaker A:Good on you.
Speaker C:I'm so okay with it.
Speaker A:It evokes feeling content within yourself in a way that you hadn't before.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's lovely.
Speaker C:That need for validation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is completely shifting.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I can reflect on my life.
Speaker C:And again, liking yourself doesn't mean I am perfect.
Speaker C:It doesn't mean I've always been perfect.
Speaker C:It means I. I can reflect and know where I went right and wrong.
Speaker C:But either way, I'm okay with that now.
Speaker A:My lovely wife followed your career all the way through, so I checked in with her before coming to get the chance to talk to you today.
Speaker A:I was like, what's your sense of Sophie?
Speaker A:And she said, I find her refreshingly honest.
Speaker A:And I think I've had a great experience of that today, too.
Speaker A:Just that your willingness to be vulnerable and share what you're really going through and.
Speaker A:And the fact that you're even doing that more now, I think that's quite exciting for you.
Speaker A:You can take that skill and it's.
Speaker C:But it's because I want to, not because I'm feeling the need to.
Speaker C:To be performative.
Speaker B:As you said, it's not just a business decision.
Speaker C:No, it's because I Actually want to.
Speaker A:Sophie, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Speaker A:I feel great for you, having heard, you know, where you've come from and that thinking back to that.
Speaker A:That lonely, hurting girl.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And seeing you now at a place of self acceptance, it's really quite lovely to see.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:Yeah, I feel like I'm.
Speaker C:Like I'm all Zen after that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's also the lemon and ginger.
Speaker C:Yeah, I know.
Speaker C:The extra strong tea bag lifting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:I really appreciate it.
Speaker A:And we'll look forward to hearing your letter.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Firstly, I just want to reiterate that Sophie's transparency was just really brave and refreshing.
Speaker B:And really for someone with a social profile, like, she has to share what she did, I just think is.
Speaker B:It's commendable.
Speaker A:It's fantastic, isn't it?
Speaker A:That's the kind of vulnerability that we hope we get with our guests.
Speaker A:But she does that really easily.
Speaker A:She's obviously been practicing it quite some time, and it's what I think has drawn her audience to her, that willingness to be so honest.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And hopefully that's just helpful and comforting for people that maybe have experienced similar things in their life to just hear a story like that and feel a bit less alone and a bit heard.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And look, we haven't talked about self harm much on this podcast yet, so I was, yeah, as you mentioned earlier, grateful that she was willing to go there.
Speaker A:But it is something we should address a little more now, as we said.
Speaker A:So self harm, Nick, is all too common.
Speaker A:Many, many young people, particularly in teenage years, do explore it.
Speaker A:And I don't think there's any one reason why people do it, but the common thread, I would say, is it's something that creates relief for people.
Speaker A:And that might sound counterintuitive if you're not someone who's thought about this much before when you're actually causing yourself harm.
Speaker A:It's unfortunately something young people turn to sometimes to create a sense of.
Speaker A:Of relief or to feel something at all.
Speaker A:If there is a huge buildup of pressure or they're struggling emotionally, this can be something that they go to as something they can control.
Speaker A:Something that feels like it's theirs and creates a very, very strong sensation that they're drawn to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I appreciate you saying it's not one cause.
Speaker B:And that was interesting listening to Sophie's nuanced and pretty comprehensive recollection on all the different things that led up to that.
Speaker B:And, you know, certainly that.
Speaker B:That inability to process emotion was clear, you know, Felt sorry for her.
Speaker B:She's talking about this coping strategy of she'll be all right and convincing everyone that she was fine when clearly she had emotions and insecurities and anxieties that were not dealt with.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we don't know for sure if it's because Sophie felt like she couldn't speak to her parents about it or if this was something that she felt like was just hers.
Speaker A:And she was, you know, there was obviously a lot of guilt around it, but it was certainly something that was, quote, unquote, serving her in some way.
Speaker A:Just if she had been able to open up, you know, to her parents or someone that she trusted, she could have avoided significant distress and isolation and pain that she unfortunately went through.
Speaker B:Of course, another one of the early memories that she shared was the traumatic event and the bullying and in particular that one incident.
Speaker B:She was only five.
Speaker B:It's kind of a reminder of the lasting impact that trauma can have even within a loving and safe household.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And their family is unique.
Speaker A:And I'm not saying this is why she was self harming, but they were a family under a great deal of pressure.
Speaker A:There was a lot of media scrutiny, there was a lot of public abuse, really, you know, of them because of dad being involved in football.
Speaker A:That's not fair, you know, for a kid to have to grow up in such an environment.
Speaker A:Although she was of course, very complimentary of her parents and her family and, and did feel very connected to them.
Speaker A:It's just, it's sad that she had this, this thing going on that she felt like she couldn't tell them about.
Speaker A:So I guess, you know, for people listening, you know, you might be wondering about your, your young person and what they're going through, or if you are listening to this and have experienced it or are experiencing it yourself, as ever, I am such a big fan of just open communication, where possible, to ask those challenging questions, to talk to young people about these things.
Speaker A:Because it's only through breaking through that barrier that we can actually start to really gain understanding.
Speaker A:And, you know, for Sophie, what she, I guess, really needed to hear from someone that this thing isn't your friend.
Speaker A:You know, it feels like it is.
Speaker A:It feels like it's something that's helping.
Speaker A:But there are other ways, other ways to let out this pressure, other ways to explore these feelings other than holding it in and causing yourself harm.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that happens through those difficult conversations.
Speaker B:Fair.
Speaker B:And I guess the question that I have off the back of that is just what are some of the other ways that people can relieve that pressure because, you know, it's one thing and it's a common thing to hear people say, oh, we need to be able to speak about our emotions, we need to go to therapy.
Speaker B:And Sophie reflects that.
Speaker B:She thinks that would have been really helpful.
Speaker B:Maybe you can dig into other ways, though, that people, you know, this buildup of anxiety, this buildup of pain inside, she needed to process it.
Speaker B:How else could she have gotten that out?
Speaker A:We need to feel like those emotions are validated.
Speaker A:And I suppose sometimes we can feel like it's seen as weakness or not coping or not good enough.
Speaker A:You know, there's some element of feeling like a failure sometimes to bring up that sort of stuff.
Speaker A:And I wonder if Sophie felt a bit of that, you know, in her upbringing in a high performance, maybe perceived high pressure environment.
Speaker A:Whereas what might have happened if she was able to open up about it is, first things first, she's going to say, oh, it's okay to feel these things and it's normal to feel like that.
Speaker A:So already that might take some of that pressure off and certainly the sense of isolation.
Speaker A:But then how do we actually process those feelings is a different question.
Speaker A:So, yeah, for some, talking through it, feeling connected, feeling validated, looking at things from a different perspective, that's going to do a fair bit of that work.
Speaker A:For others, it might be more physical, you know, the need to actually exercise or to, I guess, get that feeling out physically.
Speaker A:I know you're someone who benefits a lot from exercise to help you process emotion.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And whereas I guess for me, I'm more on the thinking, cognitive side of things.
Speaker A:So there's any number of ways to do it.
Speaker A:But you could see that, like, if we're not talking about it, we can get trapped in the sense that this is the only thing I've got.
Speaker A:And yeah, I just feel sad.
Speaker A:I feel sad for young Sophie that she felt like she couldn't or didn't want to share it with anyone because it was her own private thing to hold.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And also, as you said, I believe in the interview, just so understandable that the coping strategy she learned as a young person carried through to adult years.
Speaker B:I'm sure a lot of people experience that, you know, you go to what is familiar, what is learned, and that includes destructive habits.
Speaker A:Self harm has a complex reputation, I suppose you could say, and that some people would see it as just a cry for help.
Speaker A:Others would worry that it's a sign of suicidal ideation.
Speaker A:The truth is it can be neither or both of Those things, and we don't really know until we open up the conversation and ask.
Speaker A:It can be very, very difficult to talk about.
Speaker A:And if you're listening to this and you're not sure how to do that, well, I guess I would just say to keep it simple in the sense of just saying, hey, are you okay?
Speaker A:That you might have noticed some scars or something along those lines.
Speaker A:It's very, very important that that's talked about.
Speaker A:I've noticed that scar.
Speaker A:Can we talk about that?
Speaker A:Is there something going on for you?
Speaker A:Is it something you feel more comfortable talking to maybe a counselor or a psychologist about?
Speaker A:But we do need to talk about this.
Speaker A:That's the first step.
Speaker A:Beyond that, though, I just want to reassure people that just because there is self harm does not necessarily mean there's any kind of suicidal thoughts or desire to end one's life.
Speaker A:In fact, a lot of the time that's not the case, but it can be.
Speaker A:So again, just the importance of open dialogue becomes essential.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:My understanding of the self harm before today was also that it was often linked to abuse.
Speaker B:If you've been hurt as a young person, sometimes that'll eventuate.
Speaker A:Look, it can be, but honestly, there's no one pathway.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:Yeah, most commonly it's the end point of young people trying to explore huge feelings that they don't know what to do with, and they find this avenue that ends up creating some sense of relief.
Speaker A:And they just need help to know that there are other ways.
Speaker B:So the other main theme that we discussed in this chat, of course, was social media.
Speaker B:I appreciated Sophie's willingness to kind of reflect on her need for validation when she was younger, as the younger sibling trying to get some attention.
Speaker B:You can clearly see the trajectory there towards an influencer.
Speaker B:But more than that, it was the conversation around social media itself and the trappings that she discussed from the inside.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was really interesting, wasn't it?
Speaker A:The way that she's been able to connect with people through this relatable person that she is and the great storyteller that she is, and build this huge profile.
Speaker A:But at the same time, you know, social media feels uncomfortable.
Speaker A:You know, the more and more we're learning about it, the impact it has on our brains and young people's brains and the dopamine trap and the way in which it meets those needs, but doesn't necessarily fulfill us at a meaningful level.
Speaker A:You know, it's an interesting counterbalance, and I really enjoyed her insights about how, I guess, really attractive that was early on in her career as that as she took off and built this profile, but then ultimately came to this realization that no, this isn't it, it's not meeting my needs at a deep level and yet feeling perhaps a little bit stuck in it for the time being.
Speaker A:Yeah, really interesting.
Speaker B:So this is an example of being able to now extend empathy to an influencer who's engaging in behavior that I don't look at and I don't value.
Speaker B:But to hear the story of a young mum trying to make money to support her family, like props to her for making this work in the way that she has.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then given that this is her platform, being willing to criticize it from the inside and to look at the dangers.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Again, I'm just very impressed that she was willing to go there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And just her relationship to her own self worth as seen as mapped through her social media experience, realizing ultimately it has to be about how she treats herself, how she thinks about herself and not this need for external validation that of course social media offers on such a large scale.
Speaker A:There's a good message in there, but it's a complex challenge, isn't it?
Speaker A:Like the need for validation that she's talking about, I think we can all relate to in the way we engage with online spaces.
Speaker A:I know she did mention at the end there she sort of feels less need for external validation, but I imagine that's going to be an ongoing challenge for Sophie.
Speaker A:Would you agree with that?
Speaker B:Oh, for all of us.
Speaker B:Yeah, for all of us.
Speaker B:And I think that that's part of the process here as we look back to our younger selves to try and get some comfort and self assuredness in who we are by looking back removes a bit of that need for external validation.
Speaker A:I feel a bit hopeful to be honest, about where we might be going in terms of our relationship to social media.
Speaker A:I mean, just speaking personally, I know I'm not really posting personal things online anymore like, and, and I don't feel alone in that.
Speaker A:I think that more and more people are distancing themselves, their private life and personal life and maybe valuing privacy more than we used to when social media was brand new.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's such a huge complex topic, maybe the case for our generation.
Speaker B:I despair looking at the kids and you know, our kids are a little bit different ages, but I've got 14 and 17 and it's just taken over that age group in a really frightening way.
Speaker A:Do they share their personal stuff on there though, or are they more sharing memes and things like that they share with each other.
Speaker B:It's not public for everyone.
Speaker B:It's hidden.
Speaker A:I suppose that's what I'm saying.
Speaker A:Like, you know, in Sophie's early career, she's talking about putting her whole life out there for the judgment of others and now wanting to move to somewhere where that's more just business and her personal is her own.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you wonder if the oversharing is reducing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker B:It's still so curated what people share and I think that different generations all share differently.
Speaker B:It's a, it's a big topic, but I'm not quite as hopeful.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:No, fair enough.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, in terms of the intentions of those creating those platforms, sure, I agree with you.
Speaker A:You know, it's, it's a little bit grim, but I think in terms of social awareness, I would argue things are perhaps on the improve front.
Speaker A:We'll see.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, the government's ban is an interesting one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Maybe worth commenting on just really briefly before we get to Sophie's letter.
Speaker B:Of course.
Speaker B:We've just got an interesting experience here.
Speaker B:I don't want to speak outside my lane, but just from my experience with a 14 year old, every single one of his friends and himself included have got around the ban in a second.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's so easy for them.
Speaker B:They're text heavy and it hasn't.
Speaker B:It's not going to change their behavior at all.
Speaker B:But there is hope for these.
Speaker B:Like your daughter going into year seven for the first time.
Speaker B:Maybe a bit more will catch on.
Speaker A:Yeah, I hope so.
Speaker A:I hope it's more normalized that they just don't do that.
Speaker A:I guess we'll find out in real time, but, you know, I'm hopeful.
Speaker A:We'll see.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Nick, thank you so much.
Speaker A:Another episode and a lovely letter to look forward to now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thanks everyone for listening.
Speaker B:Thanks, Sophie and we'll see you all soon.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Sophie, you will work so hard to continually prove yourself.
Speaker C:Driven by money, the name delights.
Speaker C:But success, you'll learn, is not in the applause.
Speaker C:It is sitting at a table with people you love most and liking the person you are.
Speaker C:When the room goes quiet, you'll often be too much, too unafraid to take up space.
Speaker C:And they made you pay for it.
Speaker C:A little girl with a big voice, bigger opinions, and a fire too fierce to be dimmed.
Speaker C:I know about the nights, the hurting, the anxiety of whether these thoughts will ever stop.
Speaker C:It's suffocating.
Speaker C:You're exhausted.
Speaker C:Go Go.
Speaker C:Go.
Speaker C:You battle, fight against your own body in a way no one sees for a very long time.
Speaker C:You carved pain into yourself when all you wanted was to carve out who you were.
Speaker C:You just wanted to understand yourself.
Speaker C:And maybe even now you still don't.
Speaker C:Life will be hard for everyone.
Speaker C:You will learn.
Speaker C:Your heart will want to help those even when it hurts you.
Speaker C:But you are bound both resilient and breakable.
Speaker C:And your life teaches you that it is okay to be both.
Speaker C:Forgiveness will free you.
Speaker C:Forgiveness will become your superpower.
Speaker C:And letting go will be the prize you claim.
Speaker C:You will grow into a woman who sees beauty in everything, in people, in their flaws.
Speaker C:In the chaos, you will learn that every stumble was a lesson and every failure was a teacher.
Speaker C:You will become a mother.
Speaker C:And though your life is loud, chaotic, bursting with noise, your heart will constantly ache for the quiet with them your deepest purpose.
Speaker C:Sophie, stop chasing.
Speaker C:Breathe.
Speaker C:Be okay with simple.
Speaker C:Because in simplicity is where you will find your greatest you.
Speaker B:You're a Good Kid is produced by Nick and James Van Cuylenberg, recorded at Whitehouse Sound in Melbourne, Australia, with artwork by Dirty Puppet.
Speaker A:We acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded and recognise their continuing connection to lands, waters and community.
Speaker B:We pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures and to the elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker A:If anything in this podcast has raised concerns related to mental health, please contact your health professional or if urgent, call Lifeline on 13, 11, 14.
